Well, the belin Wall was built in the middle of a German city, and was mostly to stop East Germans from fleeing to West Germany.
The big difference is the Berlin Wall was built to keep people *in* The Israeli fence is to keep people out.. the same people who seem to enjoy blowing up buses and shopping malls in God's name.
OK, first off, there has never been a Palestinian state. In fact, the term "Palestinian" only came into being during the 19th century.
During UN debate over the creation of a Jewish homeland, it was made clear that there had to be some nod to the millions of Arab and Druze in the region. To that end, the original partition of British Palestine included two states: Israel and Palestine. The Palestinians refused, and went to the Arab nations and demanded that they push the interlopers into the ocean. The Arab armies attacked, and got their butts kicked. Before this war, many Palestinians had fled Israel to avoid the coming battles. After the war had ended, they found themselves suddenly homeless, and Israel larger and stronger than before.
Side note: Those "refugee camps" you hear about on the news? They're cities. Most of them founded 50 years ago, and with every modern convenience. To give that a little perspective, Washington D.C. was 60 years old when Lincoln signed the Emancipation proclamation.
The pattern over the next twenty years followed what had happened before. The Arabs would attack, and Israel would end up with more territory. After the '67 war, it became clear that the Arab nations were getting sick of throwing men and money into the Israeli meat grinder, the Arabs refused to take part anymore. That's when the terrorism began in earnest.
The problem, of course, is the fanatics on both side refuse accept peace. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have derailed every peace plan, while the hard-liners in the Knesset have taken a "fire with fire" attitude.
As far as I'm concerned, the fence is a good way to keep each side away from each others' throats.
I guess it all depends on what your point of view is. The Berlin wall wasn't built by the Germans. It was built by a Russian supported East German government and pretty much constructed *in a day* without warning. Folks who lived in West Berlin, but worked in East Berlin, suddenly found themselves citizens of East Berlin and, subsequently, of the DDR. Obviously, the actual construction of the wall took many days. And there are tons of photographs taken as folks jumped out windows of buildings directly on the line of the wall.
The building of the Berlin Wall coincided with the clang of the iron curtain. West Berlin was effectively cut off from western Europe, including being able to receive shipments of much needed supplies: such as food, for instance.
The proposed security wall suggested by Israel is in direct reaction to an ongoing tension between Israelis and Palestinians. Many folks like to forget that the land currently thought of as Israel once belonged to Jordan, and that it wasn't the decision of Palestinians to give it up. To Palestinians, Israel exists as a siege of their lands. To Israelis, the land was taken away from them to begin with.
To many Americans, the seizure of much of the west bank is justified as a spoils of war.
I can't argue against Israel any more than I can argue against Palestine. Both consist of people, most of which would desire to live in peace, even if that peace means separation from one another. Despite what one may believe of Israeli intentions, I firmly believe that most folks supporting the building of said wall want nothing more than the suicide bombing to stop, and that all other matters can be worked out later.
I'm not pro-Zionist to the extent of hating Palestinians. I firmly believe that their should be a palestinian state and that Israel could do a large part in helping this come about. However, if a militant faction of the palestinian government continues to kill Israelis, it's hard to imagine why Israel would want to do so. There is plenty of evidence linking suicide bombers in palestine with the government.
I understand that the palestinians are after *particular* land, not just any old land. However, maybe it would behoove everyone if nations claiming to be friendly to palestine could help them establish a homeland that truly was theirs. Israel isn't the only country in the area, after all.
Back to the Berlin wall thing, briefly. After the defeat of Germany in WWII, the four major allies agreed to govern the country by each occupying different parts of it. Similarly, they decided to break up the capitol. By constructing the Berlin Wall and disallowing passage between east and west, the Soviet Union essentially violated the nature of this agreement, if not necessarily the law of it.
There has been no such agreement between Israel and the Palestinian people, unfortunately.
It's a tough call. I hate to see any person being oppressed, much less a whole group of people. On the other hand, folks who truly wish to give indigenous folks back their homeland - and think the situation is as cut and dry as that - can start by proceeding to their nearest reservation and signing over their one homes to the local tribes.
This is my own slant on things and nothing contained herein is designed to insinuate your opinion on the subject follows any of this line of reasoning on one side or the other.
No apology necessary to this Jewish friend. However, since I don't sympathize with Israel, I'm the black sheep in my Jewish family (no pun intended).
The obvious difference is that Israel's wall is being built to keep outsiders out, rather than insiders in (the purpose of the Berlin wall). I am sympathetic to the innocent victims of the terrorists (I don't see how blowing up children advances the cause), and the innocent victims of the Israelis' ham-handed responses (I don't see how demolishing a dead bomber's second cousin's girlfriend's home makes Israel safer). But all in all, I don't have a dog in this fight.
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Date: 2003-10-24 10:42 am (UTC)The big difference is the Berlin Wall was built to keep people *in* The Israeli fence is to keep people out.. the same people who seem to enjoy blowing up buses and shopping malls in God's name.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 10:54 am (UTC)Maybe it's just me but I just can't see an innocent party in the neverending war... It's all stupidity.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 11:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 11:08 am (UTC)Sorry, the Israelis in the whole matter are no more innocent than Palestinians.
And Doc, it's not offensive to ask questions like this. It's not anti-Semitic or anything like that. It's purely a question.
A little history...
Date: 2003-10-25 04:54 am (UTC)During UN debate over the creation of a Jewish homeland, it was made clear that there had to be some nod to the millions of Arab and Druze in the region. To that end, the original partition of British Palestine included two states: Israel and Palestine. The Palestinians refused, and went to the Arab nations and demanded that they push the interlopers into the ocean. The Arab armies attacked, and got their butts kicked. Before this war, many Palestinians had fled Israel to avoid the coming battles. After the war had ended, they found themselves suddenly homeless, and Israel larger and stronger than before.
Side note: Those "refugee camps" you hear about on the news? They're cities. Most of them founded 50 years ago, and with every modern convenience. To give that a little perspective, Washington D.C. was 60 years old when Lincoln signed the Emancipation proclamation.
The pattern over the next twenty years followed what had happened before. The Arabs would attack, and Israel would end up with more territory. After the '67 war, it became clear that the Arab nations were getting sick of throwing men and money into the Israeli meat grinder, the Arabs refused to take part anymore. That's when the terrorism began in earnest.
The problem, of course, is the fanatics on both side refuse accept peace. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have derailed every peace plan, while the hard-liners in the Knesset have taken a "fire with fire" attitude.
As far as I'm concerned, the fence is a good way to keep each side away from each others' throats.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 11:17 am (UTC)The building of the Berlin Wall coincided with the clang of the iron curtain. West Berlin was effectively cut off from western Europe, including being able to receive shipments of much needed supplies: such as food, for instance.
The proposed security wall suggested by Israel is in direct reaction to an ongoing tension between Israelis and Palestinians. Many folks like to forget that the land currently thought of as Israel once belonged to Jordan, and that it wasn't the decision of Palestinians to give it up. To Palestinians, Israel exists as a siege of their lands. To Israelis, the land was taken away from them to begin with.
To many Americans, the seizure of much of the west bank is justified as a spoils of war.
I can't argue against Israel any more than I can argue against Palestine. Both consist of people, most of which would desire to live in peace, even if that peace means separation from one another. Despite what one may believe of Israeli intentions, I firmly believe that most folks supporting the building of said wall want nothing more than the suicide bombing to stop, and that all other matters can be worked out later.
I'm not pro-Zionist to the extent of hating Palestinians. I firmly believe that their should be a palestinian state and that Israel could do a large part in helping this come about. However, if a militant faction of the palestinian government continues to kill Israelis, it's hard to imagine why Israel would want to do so. There is plenty of evidence linking suicide bombers in palestine with the government.
I understand that the palestinians are after *particular* land, not just any old land. However, maybe it would behoove everyone if nations claiming to be friendly to palestine could help them establish a homeland that truly was theirs. Israel isn't the only country in the area, after all.
Back to the Berlin wall thing, briefly. After the defeat of Germany in WWII, the four major allies agreed to govern the country by each occupying different parts of it. Similarly, they decided to break up the capitol. By constructing the Berlin Wall and disallowing passage between east and west, the Soviet Union essentially violated the nature of this agreement, if not necessarily the law of it.
There has been no such agreement between Israel and the Palestinian people, unfortunately.
It's a tough call. I hate to see any person being oppressed, much less a whole group of people. On the other hand, folks who truly wish to give indigenous folks back their homeland - and think the situation is as cut and dry as that - can start by proceeding to their nearest reservation and signing over their one homes to the local tribes.
This is my own slant on things and nothing contained herein is designed to insinuate your opinion on the subject follows any of this line of reasoning on one side or the other.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 11:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-24 03:20 pm (UTC)The obvious difference is that Israel's wall is being built to keep outsiders out, rather than insiders in (the purpose of the Berlin wall). I am sympathetic to the innocent victims of the terrorists (I don't see how blowing up children advances the cause), and the innocent victims of the Israelis' ham-handed responses (I don't see how demolishing a dead bomber's second cousin's girlfriend's home makes Israel safer). But all in all, I don't have a dog in this fight.